Wedding Photographer in Atlanta, Janelle and I talk about how to fully immerse in your wedding experience while also ensuring you don't miss important family/friend photographs. 

ATLANTA WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER, JANELLE

Guest Bio

Janelle owns JJ Au'Clair Wedding Photography and has been a wedding photographer in Atlanta GA for over 10 years, specializing specifically in film photography since 2012. Her primary goal is to offer a luxury (and relaxed) wedding experience for her couples, from beginning to end, and deliver meaningful and timeless photographic keepsakes! Today she has a team of 5 more photographers, all serving the Southeastern states and destinations worldwide. Beside her passion for her couples and weddings, Janelle is passionate about travel, her two pups, and holistic wellness!

Website: https://jjauclair.com Instagram: @jjauclair

Transcript

Jeff Armstrong  00:03

To now I'm so happy to have you here on the podcast. And we're going to talk a little bit about things that we have seen through experience on wedding days that could easily have been, you know, stuff that could either be avoided or improved upon to help our couples have a lot better experience, both in terms of like their their wedding day experience, but also be happier with their photos in the long run. And so you know, if you're, if you're listening this I do want to go ahead and introduce to know jenelle has been a wedding photographer in Atlanta for over 10 years. She specializes specifically in film photography, film photography, and she's been doing that since 2012. So her primary goal is to offer a like a luxury yet relaxed wedding experience for her couples. Really, for the whole experience, right, like and your thing is you want to create a very consistent experience for couples where you deliver these meaningful timeless photographs that are keepsake worthy pretty spot on yet Am I spot on so far? I think I'm

Janelle Rivera  01:11

just about right sounds

Jeff Armstrong  01:12

just about right. I'm, I am reading this, you know, so this is I shouldn't get be too far off. But I'm also ad libbing a little bit here. So I have she she has a team of five, five more, including yourself, right? You've got five other people on your team include me it's six. So six total photographers, all serving the south eastern states and destinations worldwide. Also, your beside will beside your passion for your couples and weddings. you're passionate about travel your two pups and holistic wellness. Your good right?

Janelle Rivera  01:48

Yeah, that's that's

Jeff Armstrong  01:51

nailing it. What kind of pups Do you have, by the way? What what species actually,

Janelle Rivera  01:55

they're both rescues. One of them is a covid puppy, who I got as the shelters were shutting down in Atlanta, so she's a pocket pity. I say pocket because she's really small.

Jeff Armstrong  02:11

Yeah, yeah, you can fit her in your pocket.

Janelle Rivera  02:13

Yeah, not quite that. I mean, she's still 50 pounds of pure muscle. Okay, if you have

Jeff Armstrong  02:17

right pockets.

Janelle Rivera  02:19

Yeah, yeah, she you have to have huge pockets for her. But she is super petite compared to the rest of the breed. And then my other dog is actually an Alaskan Malamute mix that I rescued years ago. I think he's six now. Awesome. They're great dogs.

Jeff Armstrong  02:36

Yeah, sometimes those, the rescue dogs are the best dogs is what I found. So we're going to talk about, again, things that we have found over the years that we've been doing this to things that could be improved upon, you know, to help create that better experience, or also things that not just experience, but even the photographs. And so, you know, you and I we first started talking about this, I don't know, like a week ago, ish, maybe something like that. And I really reached out because I was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I find that couples Don't think about before their wedding day. That sometimes results I don't want to say in problems, but it's like, it does kind of diminish what their experience could be. So yeah, I mentioned, I know with a lot of couples, things like family formals, you know, they don't have a solid list to where it's like, Okay, I know exactly. Which family is going to be photographed in which in, in, in the particular group, right. So like, number one, I know I want bride growing bride's parents, right. Number two is bridegroom groom's parents, so on and so forth. And so that's something that I know I wanted to specifically talk about, and talk about some of those sort of tips to help people make sure they get those photos, but not just make sure they get all the photos they want. But also make sure that they are that time goes more smoothly.

Janelle Rivera  04:15

Yeah, almost like, what's the way that we can organize this that way? We're not here for an hour and a half or an hour. Just trying to get all the combinations, right. Like how's the most streamlined way to organize?

Jeff Armstrong  04:25

Yeah, yeah. So so let's talk to me, but like, what's your process with that? How do you usually handle those situations?

Janelle Rivera  04:33

Well, it's actually funny because my family is massive. I'm of Latina descent. So I have 41 first cousins, just on my dad's side. And I do Family Photos every Thanksgiving for my family, which means over the years, I've really learned how to streamline and organize. And the best way to do it is start big and work your way down. Amen. So I always send my question Clients a pre fabricated list of like, this is the classic shots that I suggest. But beyond that, I make it work so that you have like, Okay, this is the entire family, aunts, uncles, cousins, everybody that you want in the photos if you want to get that big, and then work your way down. So like have everybody in and then be like, Okay, cool. cousins, aunts and uncles step out now. It's just immediate family. Now everybody step up. But Grandma, Mom and Dad, now you guys think cycle out and then and you kind of like dance that way. Everybody doesn't have to stand around for a long time. It's like I'm in I'm out. And I'm out. Right?

Jeff Armstrong  05:41

So it prevents a lot of confusion to write. Because if you've got it

Janelle Rivera  05:46

helpful just to have all the names, yes. on that list

Jeff Armstrong  05:50

from a photographer's standpoint, it's good. Because like, you can be sort of authoritative, and be like, okay, combination number one, and just call out those names. Yeah, right. So like, a lot of times, when I found like, if couples build their own lists, very often they'll put, like generic names. And they're like, they'll just say, like, bride groom. And then yeah, they'll say it, which is fine. But I've noticed, like sometimes that, like, that gets kind of confusing. So even a wedding I had to, or no, this is last weekend, they all they had done is they actually pulled a generic list off of the internet. And they highlighted the, like, the combinations that they wanted. And so as I thought I didn't know exactly that, that's what they did. I thought they sort of tailored it to at least where they were giving, like family name, you know, like, okay, Grandma, mom, dad, so on and so forth. I didn't know there was a generic list. So like, we get to the list. And I'm like, Okay, this combination, and then call out the family members. And it was like, not completely right. And that actually caused some confusion.

07:07

Yeah, I didn't, you

Jeff Armstrong  07:08

know, it's like I, we had talked about family formulas and everything I just didn't know, as a photographer, that, okay, this list actually isn't complete, like, Yeah, great. You have a list. But even not having those names on that list, specifically, where they said, okay, we weren't? Sure is, here's the names of everybody. Yeah, all listed out. Or at least that, you know, even if it was like, okay, we're not just going to copy and paste, we're actually going to put in the specific family members, because those, you know, from for us as photographers, like, we deal with all sorts of different experience like different. Okay, family structures. We also deal with, yeah, sometimes there's families where there's been divorce and whatnot, and then

Janelle Rivera  07:53

a lot of unique dynamics you have to be aware of as a photographer,

Jeff Armstrong  07:56

right. And so I think it's great that you actually have a list that, you know, you give people are they using it as sort of like a template, and then you like you do tell them, hey, fill this in with your specific combinations.

Janelle Rivera  08:12

So the template Actually, I wish I could like show you. But essentially, what it is, is that, like, it has bride side and groom side, and then it has all of the common combinations that like, are most regularly used in order of like largest to smallest. And it actually asked them to fill in the names of the people in parentheses to the side that are going to be used in that combination. And if they don't want the combination, just remove it from the list. Okay, so editable document that they get that they can do that, too. And I do actually request that large families, as in like, immediate families of eight or more. I will actually ask them to send a photo with names over on the faces. Yes. Because once it gets that big, if you've got like, I mean, the I had a bride in Savannah, back in July, who had 10 siblings, and it's like, hey, hon, I'm gonna need some faces and some names. And she ended up pulling up the document with all the siblings and their spouses. And it was like a big family photo. And she literally just wrote names and numbers, so I could have like a name to the face. And I gave that to my sister. And I was like, learn this. Right,

09:29

right, they

Janelle Rivera  09:30

have, you'll be calling these names. And that actually helped a lot with this. And I don't know, in the southeast, there's a lot of larger families and larger friend groups and bridal parties. And so that's super helpful both for family and bridal party photos. Yeah,

Jeff Armstrong  09:43

yeah. How many combinations do you typically recommend? I mean, like do you do you have a recommended like, Hey, you know, if we've got like, say 45 minutes to an hour, you know, this many combinations might work good with this or or, you know, what's

Janelle Rivera  10:00

I just it's specific to the couple, because some people aren't as close to, you know, all of their extended family. Normally, my suggestion is, you know, get one photo with everybody all together, all your extended family like anybody that you want to include do that. And then afterwards, I normally just suggest that you drop down to your siblings and their spouses, one group photo, and then just your siblings, and then your parents and your grandparents. That's kind of the combination list that I have set out. So it's like, go bag, go a little bit bigger, narrow down to immediate family. And then you can kind of do your specific combinations within, like all of your sisters, all of your brothers, your parents, Grandma, and then or grandma and grandpa. And then from there, if they have specifics, like I really want one with like, just me and Grandma, or I want one with just me and my uncle. Cool. add that in. And we'll try to kind of do that, with however the flow would best go. But I would say that usually family photos, I do 30 minutes or less. And usually, we're looking at five to seven combinations.

Jeff Armstrong  11:10

Perfect. Yeah, I tell people, ideally, about five to seven. But please don't do more than 15. I tell people 15 you're going to feel tired?

Janelle Rivera  11:26

Yeah. And if you want that many different combinations, that's also something that you can do at the reception. Yeah. Oh, yes. Um, you know, like, if you because there are people who have like fraternities, and, you know, like, I have five girl cousins that I'm just really, really like, we all grew up together, like, Cool, let's get that specific combination on the dance floor or like at the reception, which can still be really beautiful. And obviously, if it's depending on the lighting situation, like we're trained to make it look beautiful and have proper light. And, you know, we can get a clean backdrop. Like, that's totally doable. But it would be better to focus on your closest family and like the group shot, and then do that later, then stress yourself out and do hundreds of combination. Right? Right. Hundreds is dramatic, but

Jeff Armstrong  12:17

Well, I've seen some people want to do, I think our largest was 31 time I had 30 combinations. And she was really excited about having family, formal photos done. She's very, like old fashioned.

Janelle Rivera  12:34

Yeah, and I was gonna say, and some people just love that opportunity. And that's great. And in that situation, you want to as the photographer best serve them and find a way to make that the most possible for them to be able to print those out. Because chances are, she would want those in an heirloom of some kind later. Absolutely. And but for most people, you know, the five to seven is kind of what I see. I agree with you, it's like that that usually can pretty much encompass everything. And then if you have

Jeff Armstrong  13:03

you know, I think couples I see a lot of times they they don't realize like, hey, like if you want a photo during your reception, like it's nothing for you to just say, Hey, here's so and so can I get a photo with them real quick? Of course, we're taking candidates and everything like that. But, you know, I think that it's really good to realize like, I mean, I guess every photographer is different, but I've never met another photographer that's like, Oh, I will not take a, you know, sort of posed photo during a reception. I just want I've never met anybody that have anybody.

Janelle Rivera  13:36

There's a lot of downtime at receptions. Yeah, does reception work is very much. So documentation. For the most part outside of like, we have a timeline that tells us okay, this is the cake cutting, this is the first dance and at that point, you're learning, okay, how do I find and document this in a beautiful editorial way that can be cherished, but then you have all this downtime in between of people dancing of people talking and laughing and eating together. And that is very much so time that you could request things if you want them because otherwise the photographer is just being artistic and their way of documenting that they have a lot of free time to do so. Right?

Jeff Armstrong  14:20

Right. We, we even and I don't know that every photographer does this or not. But we after everybody's eaten, okay, not while they're eating. But after everybody's eating. We'll actually go around and try to get as many table shots as we can, you know, and so these are like, okay, hey, let's, let's get you you know, get everybody together. We're going to take a picture and so they kind of scoot around and they get together. And those photos are actually grabbing grins I'm sure a lot of revenue is that's awesome. I've never heard that but that's I'm gonna have to start Okay, cool. Yeah, grabbing your in, you know, credit to jenelle. So, but I think what you said is just fantastic. Like reminding people Hey, you know, you don't have to cram all these pictures in here, you know, at the famous normal photo time. But what you know, the biggest problem I think I've seen is like, you know, the couples don't think about it. That's number one. Number two, that's maybe even a larger deal is that because they don't think about it too much beforehand. They don't talk to say, mom or dad or whoever else. And like, I'm all for a couple of doing everything they want to do. Right? So it's like, you know, mom and dad say, Oh, we need to do all these different photos. And you're like, No, that's okay. I think that's fine. Like it's your wedding, right? But what I found is that sometimes there's not communication between, you know, a bride and her mom or something like that. And so like, what ends up happening is, they they, you know, I'll say, Okay, here's our family formulas. Thank you for that. Let's do these photos. And then two days later, I get an email from somebody. And they're like, we didn't do these photos. And I'm like, What? And that's happened a few times where there just wasn't that communication. I think that

Janelle Rivera  16:18

something that's difficult about that specifically is, as the photographer, your client is the couple,

Jeff Armstrong  16:25

yes.

Janelle Rivera  16:26

But you're interacting with their family, their friends, you know, and all of these other people who are part of the day. And not that they forget, like, Oh, well, obviously, like, you didn't hire me, but more that in that moment, and in that time, they have ideas that they want to be fulfilled. And if the client or if the couple hasn't spoken with their family, and there hasn't been communication in advance, a lot of people can end up feeling like oh, well, things weren't lived up to the expectation that I had for this wedding day. So it's really important that for me, it's really important that I even communicate with my couples like, hey, talk to your family, let them know, like, if you want to, if you're and I feel like this kind of also comes up in consultations and stuff when you speak to your couples, like, Hey, what's your family dynamic? Because I've had brides literally Tell me like, Oh, my mom is a lot. I love my mom. But she's a lot like, Okay, cool. Good to know, prepare me for this. What does that mean? What does she expect? Should I meet her? And like, what do we need to talk about to make sure that this is smooth for everybody? And so that way, nobody's feeling disappointed. And I think, to some extent, as a photographer, you have to know that you've spoken with your client in advance, and that you know what the couple wants, so you can put your foot down and be like, no, that happens for me a lot with like, Indian weddings. Just all the Auntie's have all these opinions of what photo to get in, there comes a point where I'm like, you know what, she didn't tell me to get that one. But if I have a moment,

18:01

I will write. And like,

Janelle Rivera  18:02

I don't know, there's just like, a lot of ways that you can navigate. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Jeff Armstrong  18:07

Like, I mean, if if, you know, if you're a bride or groom listening to this, you know, it's good to understand that, if you're, if you've hired a professional wedding photographer that has lots of experience, they see you, as the client, you know, they weren't the priority, you're the priority, we're not there to get every picture that, you know, so and so once. And now, there's a difference there. Because if it's like, you, there just wasn't communication. And like you actually are like, Oh, I wish showed so and so would get that picture. You know, it's like, in that instance, where there just hasn't been a communication, it's like we would love for, if you want someone so to have this combination in the family formals, we want them to happy, like, we want you to have that, because that's important to you. But we're also they're like, we don't want you to get stressed out because family member x is being a little bit over the top, maybe, in your opinion. Sure. Then, yeah, like we don't we want to protect you from that. So we're, you know, we're not saying, you know, do every fourth thing, like formal combination that every person, you know, once but we are saying if there's communication, like, make sure that you that you if there is a sort of a compromise, or, you know, oh, yeah, we do need to include so and so in the family formals. Like, it's good to have those.

Janelle Rivera  19:30

Yeah. And I think that our job also, as the photographer is beyond making sure that all the communication has been done in advance. I think it's really important also that, like our job is to see people and to read them to some extent, so almost to use our intuition. Like how are you feeling right now? If somebody is pushing these additional family photos or these additional shots like, Am I reading that she wants this?

Jeff Armstrong  19:57

Yes,

Janelle Rivera  19:57

yes, she actually feeling pressured right now. Is he feeling pressured right now and then kind of catering to an accommodating to make that smooth? Because so much of I always say that I'm a wedding photographer, but I'm also like a therapist.

20:11

Yes. Because the

Janelle Rivera  20:12

day of you're doing family therapy and organization, and you're really making sure that things go smoothly for everybody.

Jeff Armstrong  20:19

Yeah. So absolutely,

Janelle Rivera  20:21

definitely agree with you there.

Jeff Armstrong  20:22

Cool. Well, and another thing that, ya know, we've been talking a lot about family formals. And I think there's a big takeaway is like, just communicate with your photographer on that habit list that is specific, you know, and, and just plan for that. And usually, like five to seven combinations is enough, you know, if you if there's other photos you want, like, feel free to not take up all your cocktail hour or whatever for, you know, post photos before your reception. But get some during the reception, even like, that's totally fine. But the key is communicate, you know, make sure you've got a list that number one you're happy with. But if there's some photos that you know, mom once or something like that, and you're cool with it, and it's not going to make you overwhelmed, like just just make sure that you've thought about it in that sort of way. So that on your wedding day. It's quick to the point, you avoid as much confusion as possible. You know, you don't have people that are just like this has happened so many times with us. I'll tell this story. We were at a venue is at a distillery. And they did a bourbon tour. So I'm in Kentucky, right, so cool. And so it was Buffalo Trace distillery. And we were doing family formals. Right now. They were doing these bourbon tours. And I want to say the officiant said, Hey, family, make sure you don't go on the tour. Because you've got to get family formals. Right. So we get to we get to this combination. That is it's a lot of people. And somebody goes, where's Bob? And so for about five minutes, we were just waiting, because people run around trying to find Bob, finally, somebody made a phone call. Oh, Bob's on the bourbon tour. You know, that, like what you're saying earlier, you said this, he said that, you know, if you have a structure, and you've communicated that, that just to the photographer, but even to the people that are supposed to be there, hey, stick around, and you structure it so that way like you do the larger combinations first. So then like the you can let people peel away?

Janelle Rivera  22:36

Yeah, I was like they can be released a release,

Jeff Armstrong  22:37

they can go get drinks, you know, whatever. That that's fantastic. And I think that it creates to so much more organization and you can just keep everything organized, quick to the point to you know, to the point so you can get to actually party. I've never met a bride. I've had one bride, I should say that, that really liked those family formal photos. Every other bride I've had, once they hit about five to seven, they're kind of like I'm about done.

Janelle Rivera  23:03

Yeah, you're normally in the rare percentile if you want more than five to seven, which is okay, like be you. But that is rare. I did have one more thought

Jeff Armstrong  23:13

shoot go

Janelle Rivera  23:14

for on making this easier. In particular, at five to seven. Sounds like a lot. And it is a lot. But I know a lot of brides who want photos without their spouse and grooms who want photos without their spouse with their family. I actually suggest that you don't do that during family portrait time and family formal time. But rather you don't advance while you're getting ready. So you know, you get into your dress with your mom helping you and then you get photos with your mom. Yes. And you can do a quick first look with your dad and get some photos with your siblings right then in there, just like super simple knock it out of the way. It's happening in an intimate environment. And it's really special. And I think there's actually more emotion so they're not so like formal, but really beautiful photos with your family. And you can do that on both sides. You know, mom's helping him get his booton year on. And dad sees him for the first time and they like have that conversation. Just like Dude, you're moving up, you're doing something different, like I've seen all of that. And getting those photos done in advance is also taking pressure off of that formal time, which, again, most people don't really love the super formal stuff anyway.

Jeff Armstrong  24:28

Right right now that's perfect. Now, that's an excellent suggestion. And I am right there with you on that. Because, I mean, you there's so many of those types of photos that you can get during that getting ready time. You know, or even if it's just in some sort of moment, in a lot of times those those sort of, you know, can happen candidly, you know, some of those sorts of photos will happen candidly, anyhow, you know, but if there if there are some, you know, combinations that again, it's like okay, I want as a bride I'd say I want a picture with my mom and specifically with, you know, my two sisters or something like that. Like, there's nothing wrong with just grabbing your mom and the two sisters and getting a photo there and getting ready. And we, my wife, and I mean, we, we usually will specifically at the very least try to get pictures of bride with her mom. And then if they're siblings, you know, okay, you can come on in, like, let's, let's make sure we get kind of one where you're looking at the camera. Right? So yeah, I think it's good, like in what you're saying, is fantastic. Because you've kind of mentioned like, Okay, take the load off of that family for more time, just make sure that you really get those photos that you need. But if there's other photos you want, whether it be specifically with family, or, which is great for like that getting ready, you know, pre ceremony type thing. But if you've got, you know, your you know, college friends, or, you know, a childhood friend, or whatever you want those types of photos, reception time is a perfect time for that, as well. So,

Janelle Rivera  26:07

I think that the reason why people try to cram it all into the portrait time, is because to them, the concern is like, if I don't do it, now, there's a chance that it won't get done. Yes, there's a chance that the photographer won't catch this person being present. And then my day will feel incomplete because somebody was missing who was really important to me, right? Which is why like, if you're able to talk about and communicate with your photographer in advance, we can spread it out. So it doesn't feel so overwhelming, and actually can even seem more natural and organic. And those photos be something that are more exciting and authentic. Yeah, to your relationship with that person than just the formal the formal is really should be. I don't want to say the most boring part. Because, obviously, like they're wonderful, but those should be the least like, Okay, cool. We got everybody in the shot. And the other ones, they should be the least emotive, that's the word. I'm looking for the least emotive, out of all the videos on your wedding day. It's a good word and

27:10

thanks.

Jeff Armstrong  27:13

So it, kind of piggybacking on that. Because I guess my concern sometimes is that brides have an idea of the photos that they want on their wedding day. And I've even had some brides that do actually make a list of not just like the family formals that they want, but also like these other sort of photos during different times of the day. And I have to be honest, as a wedding photographer, I don't like those lists of like, oh, during

Janelle Rivera  27:42

that you don't want a Pinterest board that is printed out? is through?

Jeff Armstrong  27:48

not usually not usually I'm cool. If abroad. It's kind of like, you know, like, wedding last Saturday. Bride was like, Hey, I really want a photo, you know, we're going to this. There's like a museum that we stopped at. It was kind of like an iconic museum had like a photo at this particular spot at the museum. I'm like, I don't care. That's what she like, apologize. She was like, I'm so sorry. I know you you've got all the creative direction. Like I want you to do everything you want to do. But I kind of had this one photo. I was like, shoot, that's great. The state's about you, girl. That's that is totally fine with me. In so like that I have no Yeah, that's great. But usually, most photographers that I know, don't really want like a big list to shoot from. But I think that concern sometimes it's like, even if it's just like, oh, during getting ready, I want to, you know, these four pictures of you know, me with these different people. I think sometimes what the goal there is, is that, you know, brides like, or the groom is like, I'm concerned about forget these I think you mentioned that earlier, it's like they're concerned, they're going to miss out on some photo, because they forget. So like, do you have a way to sort of help couples with that? Or like, do you make recommendations to brides to kind of help with that? Like, what's, what are your thoughts? So

Janelle Rivera  29:05

I think to address that, we need to talk about the root of where that fear is coming from. And it's

Jeff Armstrong  29:11

trust. Yeah,

Janelle Rivera  29:13

like, if you trust your photographer, if you've hired somebody that you see their portfolio, you see the images, you've communicated with them and you know that they care, you should not be afraid that they're not going to be present on your day. And having listened to everything that you've told them getting to know each other in advance to actually document and capture those people and capture those moments. That being said, most photographers are creative people. And because of that, having a checklist to document like to check through on your day like really just like messes with the flow. You're like Okay, wait, I think I got everything now I need to double check this checklist and like mark each one and like where did my paper go? I lost it two hours ago. That isn't going to be as effective. If you're trying to list literally everything, like I want a picture of the cake, like, Yes, I will get a picture of the cake. And at that point, like you need to be able to trust your team and know and if you've seen their photos, if you've seen their portfolio, you should know Yes, actually captured and trust that. However, if there's something specific or special, like, hey, grandma's really important to me, then like, okay, I made a mental note, I'm going to document that. And I also have an assistant who kind of keeps up with those things for me. But for example, I had a groom one time, it was like, I really like slow exposures, I saw that you did those one time, I really want one of those. I'm like, okay, you made one request, that is like a creative thing that I can now focus on. And it's not so much about, like, when it's done, it's about like, at some point, you want something like this included, and that gives the creative freedom. So if you're feeling the need to give an entire shot list, chances are you're not trusting your photographer 100%. So you really need to address whether or not a that's the photographer for you. Or B if you need to, like let go of the reins a little bit because, you know, you hired somebody great. And like trust yourself on that. Absolutely. Um, and then from there, it's all communication, which I feel like we've been that's like the theme. podcast episode, it

Jeff Armstrong  31:26

really it really is. I mean, in in what you said was beautiful, because it's like, if you have actually done your due diligence, or like your due diligence, to book the photographer you want based on getting to know them based on Okay, I know how they shoot, and you have that relationship with them, then you, you get to take that load off of you. And I think that's where, you know, especially for couples that are just getting into looking for wedding photographers. A lot of times it's like, Okay, well, what question so I even asked a wedding photographer, am I just looking at photos? What photos Am I looking at? Do I need a full gallery, you know, things like that. And, you know, so for for couples that are like, okay, I really want the overall process to go more smoothly. In terms of again, going even going back to things like family formals, but not just the famous formals even, let's say even, you know, sort of like the photos throughout the day, right? Because that's what comes back to Okay, you know, bride groom, as you're listening this you want to be you want to feel confident and comfortable on your wedding day. You know, you don't want to have to wonder is this shot going to get captured? A lot of times what I find is that couples don't even necessarily know all the photos that they want. You know? And so, again, it goes back to No,

Janelle Rivera  32:46

they don't live, eat, breathe weddings. I mean, some people do. Some people have been planning this for a really long time. They know everything that they want. But there are some who are just like, I'm getting married. Now what? Like, what do I look for? Of course, they don't know every shot that they want.

Jeff Armstrong  33:03

Yeah, I typically be curious to hear what you do. But, you know, I typically, I like to recommend that people do a few things, you know that they do have a at least like a phone call with a photographer. I mean, if you're an email person, and you just like email, and you feel like you can get to know someone through email, that's totally fine. I personally like to get on zoom calls with like, my couples. And again, that's, I want them to book the photographer that they are going to be happy with. If that's not me, then like I want them to come away with like, like being at least one step closer to finding the photographer for them. So you know that and I say it really is good. Like, if you know you like them, like maybe look at some of their blog posts or even I hate to say this, because I feel like all the big blocks say this, but I do think that it's good that, you know, if you look through a full gallery, I've told people that because I'm like, you should, you really should make sure that you like that not just that you like their portraits, unless that's all you care about, if all you care about is portraits, that book photographer that she just loved the portraits but if you really care about your photos throughout the day, and you want to make sure that you're you kind of have a feel for what they're going to produce like just say hey, is it okay? If I see like a full gallery? How do you how do you I mean, do you recommend

34:29

nowadays the full

Janelle Rivera  34:31

product for most people unless I mean outside of the actual heirlooms and keepsakes of you know, custom made albums or fine art prints, things like that. The first contact of delivery that you're getting is this full gallery. And that's kind of going to be that moment where either you are reliving your wedding day and you're completely immersed in it, you're having a great time, or you're scrolling through it and you're like cool Got some pretty pictures of us. And then you feel disappointed or not much at all. Maybe you're really excited about one or two, but like it kind of fizzles out. Yeah. And I think that if you're connecting with a photographer, and it's going to be somebody who's literally spending all day with you on one of the most important and special days of your lives, probably one of the more expensive, yeah, events that you're ever going to put on, let's be real, such maybe your kids wedding day, if you choose to have kids, right? Like, you want to invest in somebody who is going to be present, who is going to be paying attention to what you want, who is going to artfully capture all of those things for you, and be in constant communication. And you want to know that you like them, like as a person, and that they kind of even encourage you to like, it's okay, like Everything's under control. Like, you want to make sure that their personality isn't gonna be like hi stressed out on the day of your wedding day, like those are all things you have to vet and think about, or else you could be disappointed on your wedding day, or stressed out or whatever, you have to kind of think about what's important to you,

Jeff Armstrong  36:13

when you book your photographer, Yes,

Janelle Rivera  36:15

for sure.

Jeff Armstrong  36:16

We found that we tend to book I don't know if how into like the Myers Briggs or anything that you're if you follow that at all, but we even started like kind of asking sometimes like, Hey, you know, like to our Brides, what type of, you know, what's your Myers Briggs? And we typically started finding that we had certain types of brides that we were attracting, and which is great. I mean, I don't mind work with anybody. But I think what we noticed is like a lot of the the the people that we feel that we can serve the best are people that do connect with who we are. And yeah, so it's like, if you're this type of person, you might connect, even if you let's say, there's three different people, and their work is all really gorgeous. You know, you might really connect with photographer a way more than B and C, even though another person might connect with dark versie, more than BNA or so on so forth. A lot depending on your personality type. You

Janelle Rivera  37:15

know, you might definitely you might I think it's actually funny that you say like Myers Briggs for you because I use anagram. Yeah, yeah. And I actually even noticed all of the photographer's that I work with, that have like joined my team. They all have the same anagram numbers. Oh, really? Really? And it was super bizarre that it happened. But I would just be like, by chance, like, what is it? They'd be like, Oh, yeah, I'm this and I'm like, duh. Thank you think we're gonna get along? Great. And I know you'll get along with my clients based off of this, right. And it's a similar concept, like just knowing personality types, like that's super important on a wedding day, your couples are all consistent in the same then you're attracting the right person. Absolutely.

Jeff Armstrong  37:59

So what do you need or what you would what would number

Janelle Rivera  38:03

I'm, I'm a three wing four.

Jeff Armstrong  38:05

Okay. So and it's hard. It's funny. That's what I am. Oh, this is weird. What? I'm a three wing four.

Janelle Rivera  38:14

Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I really quiet for a second.

Jeff Armstrong  38:17

I try to get closer to the

Janelle Rivera  38:19

Yeah, I'm actually three wing four. And then I have a little bit of seven, wing eight. But like just a little bit. And I do have one, eight on my team. Okay. But everybody else's through the course.

Jeff Armstrong  38:31

Is that the peacemaker? Is that the the dominant, that's the

Janelle Rivera  38:34

challenger, the challenger. Oh,

Jeff Armstrong  38:36

okay. That's the thing, though, right? Pardon? That's like, the dominance thing isn't the, the that

Janelle Rivera  38:42

it's very much so like, I want to push boundaries. And like I'm assertive, right? And it's a really honestly, it's really great for entrepreneurs. I'll just throw it out there.

Jeff Armstrong  38:55

Us Yeah, I agree. I very much agree. You know, and it's so funny thinking about these things, because, you know, I know I scored really high like three, four, because the three is the achiever, right? So people that typically really driven have very clear goals and love accomplishing goals and get a kick out of that four is, is the original, right? So if you're three wing four, you're you don't just want to achieve you want to do it with while maintaining this high sense of autonomy. Yeah, which is great from a marketing standpoint, because a lot of marketing is sticking out. Now, if you were an achiever that like you know, I don't think he usually find three wing fours selling commodities, like bread, or like eggs or something. Right, like, usually you can really achieve if you're selling, you know, if you're like the biggest manufacturer of bread, but I don't know just trying to think of the commodity. Yeah. But, you know, when you're three wing four, you love Creating, you know, like you love like, that's very much from what I found in your Creator,

Janelle Rivera  40:06

which is probably why your couples tend to be in that same like either anagram or like, Myers Briggs group, because they're creative people who care probably about quality, and having those nice things documented, but also they're like, they want to be original, they want something unique and special, but it's all very personalized, which makes a lot of sense.

Jeff Armstrong  40:32

And I think, for us, we've also, you know, we, we found that like, our style is, we're very, like my wife, because my wife and I shoot together. So Michelle is very detail oriented, you know, she likes very much the details. And so she brings a lot of the sort of feminine touch and like the detail oriented ness, where I tend to, like, sort of the bigger picture and just making sure things get done. And so like, our dynamic is, we've seen a lot of a lot of people that, that contact us, they love the, like, very natural, like, it's not so creative, and you're the same, like your photos are just gorgeous. So you've got this very natural style, very classic. Not old looking, but like classic incense, like it's timeless, right. And a lot of our couples just love that sort of natural look. But I think they also they find a lot of value in like, we like getting things done, but we're also pretty relaxed people. And I think Michelle and I, you know, we balance each other, they're down to earth, down to earth, you know, but they know that they can trust us to get things done. And, you know, think even you talk about your team a little bit. It's like, I mean, even the fact that we're here talking about the family formal stuff, and how to make sure you get these photos that you want. I mean, we're talking about this, largely because we, we like getting things done, right? Like, we want people to have a good, we want to create the experience. It's one thing for us to create photos, but it's also another thing to create an overall wedding experience. And so like, you know, I'm talking a lot here, so I don't know you, you've got my thoughts.

Janelle Rivera  42:14

I think it's funny, because where I actually got the concept of wedding experience, came not like I came up with it, because obviously I think anybody in this industry, who cares, starts to think about the experience beyond just the final product. But I think where it really clicked for me actually was there was a time where I was working in a restaurant. And there was a time when I was serving and photographing weddings. And during that season of my life, I realized that my tips increased when I cultivated an experience for my tables. Yeah. And that translated to me actually getting promoted. And eventually they were like, do you want to manage? And I was like, actually, no, because this isn't my passion. Yeah, and I walked away from it. But during that time, I really started learning like storytelling, and connecting with people and making customized choices and experiences like, from finished or from beginning to end, actually, that's what people are looking for. Yeah, they want to be able to relax and enjoy that experience, whether that is in their dinner, because they're coming in, they're paying for this experience, because they could just eat at home. Yeah. But they're coming to you because they want something special. And they want to feel unique, and they want to enjoy themselves. And that translates in just about any service that somebody pays for. Yeah, and especially with weddings, which is literally so personalized to who you are as a person. Like the experience should be something that is relaxed and pleasant, exciting. And honestly, like, you should remember your photographer and be like, Yeah, she was great. Or he was great. But also, they shouldn't be like, in the forefront of your mind. Like, oh, yeah, like, that's what I remember about my wedding day. It's very much so like a dance a give and take, it's like you want the good experience, but you also want to be able to be present and not focus on your photographer at all right? And know that you're going to get something amazing. Absolutely. 100%.

Jeff Armstrong  44:17

And, you know, I think that that sort of I think a lot of times I encounter brides that are very unsure how much to to actually invest towards their wedding photography. You know, they're kind of like just been this month just been that like they're they haven't really come to a solid conclusion or they've come to a solid conclusion. But it's based on just sort of what they've heard from blogs or something like that. And so a lot of times what I think like I had written an article about how to feel comfortable choosing wedding photographer, I wrote another one about how much to invest towards your wedding photography.

Janelle Rivera  44:57

And say I've read your articles on that. I appreciate them. So

Jeff Armstrong  45:02

I'm so glad,

Janelle Rivera  45:03

very helpful.

Jeff Armstrong  45:05

But one of the things that I took very much into consideration when writing those was, you know, you can get good pictures for cheap, comparatively speaking, if the good pictures are just you want them in focus, you know, you're not too concerned stylistically, stuff like that.

Janelle Rivera  45:25

And even sometimes you only care about certain photos and the rest don't

Jeff Armstrong  45:29

matter, right? Because, you know, you could somebody can can say, Oh, I want to shoot a wedding. And they just, they don't spend a whole lot of brainpower on their craft, they don't spend a whole lot of time gaining experience and investing in gear, whatever else. I mean, there's all kinds of business expenses,

Janelle Rivera  45:45

there's so many factors,

Jeff Armstrong  45:46

and not just business expenses, but even your personal commitment, right, and the ability to be able to produce, ultimately, the experience, you know, so as we're, as you were talking about this, you know, you're you create a very custom experience for your couples. And, like, there's, there's so much there that you can't quantify, really, you know, there's so much that it's not just, oh, I want some pictures that are in focus. Right? That's not what couples are paying for, in a lot of instances. But the difference between a photographer that, you know, is much cheaper, and one that is able to charge more, is that they're able to charge more, because they're actually putting the work. I would say, if not 100% of time, 90% of time, it's because they've learned these principles that you you become invested, not just in the photos, okay, photos are obviously a huge part of that, the style, the approach that you take, but also in the overall experience. And I think sometimes it's tough to understand that, you know, if you're just now getting into trying to choose a wedding photographer, looking around for wedding photographers, sometimes it's like, Okay, what, what's the standard? You know, what's the ruler that I use in my brain to sort of measure the value that I'm getting? And how do I then price that in? What am I able to put towards that that product, whatever it is, and if you just see it as like photos, then, if that's all you want, that's fine. But if you really want, like a solid experience,

Janelle Rivera  47:28

I hate that I'm gonna keep translating this to food.

Jeff Armstrong  47:31

Go for it. I love food. So I mean, it sounds great to me. I

Janelle Rivera  47:37

mean, there's a huge difference. It's like, you're saying, like, if you just want photos? Well, yeah. Okay. So if you just want to go to Taco Bell, and just get food, something that you can consume, and maybe Taco Bell is like a really low standard of food. Is it food? I don't know if I'm allowed to say it's at

Jeff Armstrong  47:59

least dog food. But I don't know if I would. If I had a dog. I don't know that I would feed them Taco Bell personally, it's okay, good. Yeah,

Janelle Rivera  48:06

Taco Bell. So I'm glad you're on the same page, no judgment. But you know, whatever. choice of like food experience takeout, let's just say takeout. It's very broad. It's like, if you just want food, or if you just want photos, you can pay less to just have those. But if you're wanting to have an anniversary dinner, and have an experience, or I mean, I'm saying anniversary dinner, if you want a birthday dinner, if you want to spend time with somebody and go out and know that you're gonna be able to be present with each other, but also that you're going to have fun, and that you're going to get a customized wine choice and all of these other things, and I'm using food, because that's just probably my lovely. But you could say that with any kind of experience, whether that be a tour, travel or whatever. It's like, you can just go somewhere, or you can have something cultivated. Yes. And that's really what you're paying for. And, I mean, I've seen people pay crazy amounts of money for a food experience. And I've paid crazy amounts of money for food experiences that I would do again and again, like, happily because that was an incredible experience.

Jeff Armstrong  49:18

I mean, the value is there in that experience. Mm hmm. But that didn't that experience didn't happen by accident. Right? Like, like, if you go to Disney World, for instance. It's not like somebody was like, oh, let's have a theme park and then just throw a bunch of stuff together. You know, that's, that's I don't really want to say that's more like a carnival but even still, it's like, there's a big difference between Disney World and a carnival. You know, like you might get into a carnival for you know, of course, you probably end up paying way more than you think you would in a carnival because they charged up the wazoo for tickets. But, you know, Disney World is obviously if people did not just think in their minds, oh, carnival. You know, they had a very particular experience in mind. And there's a Tons of work that continually goes into both creating and maintaining that experience. And, you know, if if Walt Disney had just a carnival in his mind, it would have never ended up as Disney had a vision and put in the work. And now everybody else that's part of that organization continually puts in that work to create that. It's I mean,

Janelle Rivera  50:22

I'll take a step further, he did something different. Because Yeah, at that time, there was nothing like Disney. Right? That was that was like another world, I think that they still kind of mark it was that like, you can step into the world? Right?

Jeff Armstrong  50:35

Absolutely. And it's an experience,

Janelle Rivera  50:36

that's something that people want to be a part of and experience. And that's as kids and then eventually, as they get older. And that's the beauty of an experience. It's something that you can relive. Yes. Yes. Something that will live on, whether it be in your memories, or in the product that you received after the experience.

Jeff Armstrong  50:56

Yeah. I mean, as humans, that's, that's weak, we kind of crave that, right, we, we sort of look for meaning in we, I think a lot of times, it's hard to find meaning, when you're living in the moment. You can have experience and sort of entertainment in the moment, right, like, if you're riding a roller coaster, like, there's your your brain is being stimulated. But a lot of times the, the feeling of gratitude that gives that meaning to life, that's like, an afterthought gets you thinking back on the experience. You know, and I don't like roller coasters a whole lot. But there's other things I do like a whole lot, you know, and I know, it's my wife loves roller coasters. I'm kind of like, I just feel like, I've seen that, you know, we have Kentucky Kingdom here, right? So like six flags, Kentucky kingdom, and I've seen the roller coasters get stuck too many times. So I kind of like, Oh, it's just, I don't know, there's something about it. But I'm sorry. I do

Janelle Rivera  51:55

think I'm just an adrenaline junkie. I'm mountain bike stack before.

Jeff Armstrong  52:00

What's the funny thing is like people get hurt mountain biking all the time. So I'm pretty much a hypocrite

Janelle Rivera  52:05

is basically the one in control of your mountain bike. That's

Jeff Armstrong  52:08

what it is. I think that that's what it is. That is what it is. Maybe I'm an eight on enneagram. Maybe I've got some 810 and six here, I have to be somewhere in control of that mountain bike. So it's like, yeah, if I wrecked the mountain bike, like, I'm like, Oh, I wrecked it. And there's that sense of like, I go hard or go home. But if I'm on a roller coaster, it's kind of like, shoot as someone else is in control of my destiny. Yeah, feels a little scary. I get that. But you know, but but I, again, not to get super philosophical with it. But I do think that, you know, when we invest, not just in winning, I mean, we're talking about wedding photography, but even just as a mindset, like when we're investing in things that allow us to look back at that experience, and sort of relive it. You know, as humans, we get that, that sense of, of, of, I want to say it's not eternity, but like we kind of like our brains start to pick up on a sense of like, time, like value in time. Does that make sense? I hope I'm not saying to I satiric set the word, but like we, we you said it better than I did, I shouldn't even try to reset it, reset it. But you have those experiences, and you think back on them, and you get to relive them. And there's value in that.

Janelle Rivera  53:22

There's completely value in that. And I think that, especially with wedding photography, you can even cultivate an experience and reliving those moments. For me personally, when I send the gallery, I like to also kind of include to the couple like, Hey, your photos are coming in. I'm about to send them to you. Go get a bottle of wine I plan on spending time together tonight or tomorrow night and look through the gallery together. Don't look at it on your phone. Don't look at it out and about, but kind of like make that an experience for you too. Because you're about to relive your wedding day and all of my brides have messaged back after having done that been like, Oh, we laughed, we cried. It was great.

Jeff Armstrong  54:07

Some

Janelle Rivera  54:08

might have been the wine

Jeff Armstrong  54:10

is still bad. I'm gonna have to still that one. That's fantastic. It's really

Janelle Rivera  54:13

important to cultivate an experience from beginning to end through that. And I feel like my couples and I'm sure you're a couples like that's what's important to them is actually being able to experience their wedding day and be present and then be able to relive it. Yes. Which is our job. We're storytellers. Absolutely. And story preservers, I guess. I agree. Well,

Jeff Armstrong  54:41

this has been great Chanel, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about this stuff. And yeah, you know, if you're listening again, I hope this has been a good experience from beginning to end. So, yeah, and if you do if you're listening and you'd like to kind of check out more jenelle gentles stuff, I mean your website or anything she does have her website at JJ. Clear. Is it pronounced JJ? A clear or clear my secret, right? Yeah. Okay, JJ eclair.com. It's

Janelle Rivera  55:12

a French last name. But it's not my last name. It's still not

Jeff Armstrong  55:15

somebody's name. It's somebody. It's just pretty good. It is pretty good. It reminds me of the player. He clears a desert though, right? Aren't there is a

Janelle Rivera  55:26

delicious dessert. Yeah, it's filled with cream and dipped in chocolate.

Jeff Armstrong  55:29

Yes. I haven't had one a long time. But you should, you should change it to JJ eclairs. And she liked talking about food so much. I do.

Janelle Rivera  55:38

I also really like you Claire's.

Jeff Armstrong  55:41

There we go. We're doing well. You can also find her on Instagram at JJ Claire. which is again, this is spelled out it's J. Au CL a beautiful work. She has great photos. So thank you again, Chanel for joining me on this this episode. And I'm just so excited for you and your business as you continue to grow. And, you know if again, if you're a couple, or a bride or groom, listen to this. Jenna also has a podcast. That would be great. Just some great podcasts on there that are gonna give you more tips for creating an amazing experience for your wedding day. And I'm trying to remember Do you have a dedicated page for your podcast, right?

Janelle Rivera  56:31

I'm right now actually, I'm working with a designer to redo my website. So the only page that is dedicated to my podcast is actually just straight on my homepage. Okay,

Jeff Armstrong  56:41

so they can find it there on your homepage.

Janelle Rivera  56:43

Yeah, you can find it there where you can find it. Basically, anywhere that podcasts exists

Jeff Armstrong  56:47

through Spotify.

Janelle Rivera  56:50

It's pretty easy. It's called non st nuptials

Jeff Armstrong  56:52

now, mistake nuptials. I'm so jealous of your podcast name. I wish this was called.

Janelle Rivera  56:58

Well, it's very specific

Jeff Armstrong  57:01

to all the cool names. Gosh. That's awesome. Thanks. So yeah, well, thank you jenelle. It's been a pleasure. And we look forward if you're listening still and listen to her nonsense and amazing discussion. Then we look forward to you join us next time. Until then,